Polyamory and Blackness with @marjanilane
Marjani Lane (@marjanilane) is one of the most well-known Black polyamorous educators and is a hugely important voice in the community when it comes to pro-Black polyamorous activism. To round off this season, we discuss Marjani’s life as a queer, disabled polyamorist, as well as several controversial, hard-hitting issues in the Black polyamorous and polygamous communities:
- why Marjani believes that people can be polyamorous cheaters, and that solo polyamory is a life philosophy rather than a specific lifestyle
- how Marjani’s physical disabilities and diagnoses of ASPD and OCPD affect how they practice polyamory
- The distinction between fluid bonding and fluid exchange, and how some Black polyamorists do not feel that mainstream polyamory terms were made for them or with them in mind
- How the Black community’s idea of polygyny and the goal of “building an empire” to “save” the Black community ultimately tie back to white supremacy, misogynoir and a struggle with identity and acceptance
- Queerphobia and ableism in the polyamorous community, and how the idea of “usefulness” serves a pro-capitalist, pro-natalist agenda that comes at the expense of the marginalised
and much more.
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Leanne: Welcome to Happy Polydays, a series of intimate conversations about polyamory, sexuality, identity, and relationships, hosted by me – Leanne Yau of the Poly Philia blog.
Leanne: Hello and welcome to Day 14 of the Happy Polydays series. To round off the season, I’ll be speaking with Marjani Lane who runs the account @marjanilane, and her account focuses on pro-Black polyamorous education.
So, to start off, can you tell us more about what you do on your page, and what things you like to focus on?
Marjani: Sure, sure. I’m Marjani Lane. I created @marjanilane the page, Instagram and I just really focus on Black education, Black representation rooted in polyamory and broadly, ethical non-monogamy. So, that’s essentially the page, I spend a lot of time making sure that topics are covered that may just be specialized towards a community role and more specific to Black bodies, because of some things we deal with a little different relating to shit like navigating polyamory in a very Christian background in the South, it looks different, or if you are someone who is interracial dating, how that is perceived as a Black person. And so that’s really the gist of the page, finding representation in our community, education that’s accessible to people who are like me.
Leanne: Yeah, you do really incredible and important work Marjani. One thing that I really like about it is that you’re not afraid to kind of shine a light on the issues in the polyamorous community, and in the polygamous community as well. You’ve made a lot of controversial posts, shall we say, that caused a bit of a stir (Marjani: yes), and you know, we love to see it, right?
What I’d like to know is your polyamory origin story. So (laughs) I’ve been using this term throughout the season, and it sounds way fancier than it is, but essentially, I’d like to learn more about how you got into polyamory: how you came across it, how long you’ve been practising it, what type of polyamory you practice. Take me through your story, and your history with polyamory.
Marjani: I always say I was 19 when I started polyamory, but I always make sure to make note that it was unethical. I was a cheater, so I was in college and I was doing the old juggling more than one relationship that was meaningful to me, but I was a cheater. So, I don’t want to dress it up with a bow on it, but I was a polyamorous person. And I got exposed to that through swinging.
So I was really deep into the swinger and BDSM lifestyle before I became more serious about polyamory, and I was exposed to that in the middle part and latter part of my 20s. So I was seeing swingers that would go home with the people they came in with, they’d have two or three people go with them. It’s a couple plus another person, another person, another person, and I’m like, “What’s going on with that? “Oh they’re polyamorous.” Like, what? I knew the word, it was just different seeing people do what I was doing, and they were going home with the people they were with, like these were their people.
And that’s when I started dating couples, and unfortunately, I had a terrible experience with three separate couples. Most of which was built off of not reading, knowing or understanding the red flags, and also age differences, and also some people really should have just been swingers and not polyamorous. And something that I was looking for, really wasn’t there. And I hadn’t really got exposed to a lot of different dynamics, I didn’t really know what polyamory could look like beyond a triad. But I knew I didn’t feel comfortable. I knew I didn’t want to spend my life with three people till death. I would rather be single, I would just rather be single, (Leanne laughs) if I’m going to be in this closed triad til I die, I just didn’t like it too much.
Leanne: Yeah, the polyamorous community does have a massive obsession with triads. And it’s really bizarre to me! (laughs)
Marjani: It’s like this is the only option, there’s nothing else that possibly exists! And I’m like, I just don’t think that this is going to work for me. My ideal dynamic is not me living in a house, and it’s closed off, like we’re closed off, as three people. If there were three people living in a house and we were all dating other people, I’m cool with that, but it’s always this hyper, the God Mod of all polyamorous dynamics is the golden closed triad. And going into each relationship and having to do the same thing, even if people are swingers, what am I supposed to - I still want to do stuff. Permission? What am I, twelve? (Leanne laughs) So it got to the point where I realized there were other spots for me, I started the education, I started studying polyamory, and I started going into more ethical polyamorous dynamics. Which took a lot of unpacking for me, to recognize that, yes, the thing I wanted requires me to be just a smidgeon more transparent. So the biggest thing is that I can’t be hiding these from the relationships I’m in, especially the people I hurt, when they found out I was cheating on them, or I wasn’t being transparent about what was going on with me, and it was disturbing, to say the least, how far I went doing that, and not understanding what the dramatic impact of that was to my partners.
So as I blew my ethical - or, quote-unquote, my non-cheating window — cuz I was still polyamorous, cheater or not, I was still polyamorous — but I took off my cheating jacket, my cheating cape, I realized that it could be done. I just would have less success if I’m telling the truth. It was a hard pill for some people to swallow, not for me, I got over it. I’m thirty years old now, just putting that out.
So as I got older, I started having more dynamic shifts, and I identify as solo polyamorous, I do not really identify - and sometimes I do question that, because I want to have a nesting partner, and I do have plans to have a child. Unfortunately, solo polyamorists put that stamp of, it has to be by yourself, living by yourself, no marriage, no kids, nothing. I just feel like you can do all those things and still define myself as an individual that puts myself first in my relationship and prioritizes my needs and my boundaries before anyone else. And I can move that way, so even if relationships I’m in where I have primary partners, they still tell me that I am quite independent, I move like I’m not in a relationship with them (both laugh). And this is something that I have dealt with over the past few years as either a complaint or as an observation. So that’s my origin story, I was a villain first guys, I was a villain. (both laugh) So that’s how I came to be.
Leanne: Yeah, you brought up two really interesting things, Marjani. I think the first thing that you mentioned was that even though you used to cheat, you still saw yourself as a polyamorous person who cheated. And your beliefs seem to line up with a previous guest’s, Claire, who runs @polypages, where basically her thesis is that cheaters can still be polyamorous because polyamory is more than just - we shouldn’t be putting polyamory as a specifically ethical practice, but rather just another relationship style. Because basically, our talk was on polyamory and abuse, and what we were talking about was how polyamorous people are held to a much higher standard in terms of how they conduct themselves in their relationships because there is this whole idea that we have to be ethical. And because of that, whenever something toxic or bad happens in a polycule, it’s immediately brushed off as just not polyamory, (Marjani: yes) and then a lot of things end up being swept under the carpet, and that is a massive disservice to the community. Whereas if we just treated polyamory as another relationship style where instead of having one relationship you have multiple relationships, then it kind of levels the playing field for everyone and we can more openly talk about toxicity in the community, toxic positivity within the community, and all the other issues that come along with that. So I think it’s really interesting that you brought up the point that you were a polyamorous cheater.
And secondly, you brought up that you identify as solo polyamorous, but that you do want a nesting partner and want a child, and that reminds me of the solo polyamory chat I had with @unapolygetically where there seems to be this - would you agree Marjani, that there seems to be this discourse in the polyamorous community where some people define solo polyamory as this practice of never enmeshing with anyone, and the “solo” part of the solo polyamory is very literally interpreted, whereas some other people define it more in a relationship anarchist-y kind of way, where you prioritize yourself, and you are your own primary partner as some people like to call it, but then enmeshing with people, whether it is living with people, marrying people, having kids with people, that doesn’t take away that self-prioritization, and you seem to fall into the latter camp then. But as you said, there are some people who go like, “No, you are not validly solo polyamorous unless you are solo, like properly solo for the rest of your life”. So I find that very interesting.
Marjani: People do get stuck on that. I never really felt like that was really, I felt like that term was too harsh, I think it’s really important that we see a lot of these dynamics as spectrums. I don’t think everything’s black and white. There are some things that people do that don’t sit right with me. The whole concept of having kids, buying a house, retiring and dying, that doesn’t sit well in my stomach, it makes my skin itch and I don’t like it. But, I do have a desire to have a child, and that is something that I’ve been going back and forth about for the past ten or so years now, that’s a decision I actively made, not something that was implanted into me by society despite what was expected of my community.
Same for having a primary partner. My idea of having a primary partner as someone to live with - I say “or” for a reason - is more so for having the stability, and helping me out in a space. I’m aware that I have disabilities, so there’s some things I can’t do, like I used to. I think sometimes when we see things like that, we really hyperfocus, like, “Nope you’re following the relationship escalator” - and you don’t know why I’m doing that. You don’t know why I would prefer someone being at home, I have severe personality disorders and I also have multiple disabilities from the military. So I have to be cognizant of the fact that it would be helpful. I remember when I first went to my home earlier this year and I was having a really bad day with my knees and my foot, and it was bad, it was really bad. And I was fresh out of a breakup too. And I was like, “Man, it would be really fucking nice if someone could help me take this trash out.” (both laugh) So I had to leave the trash on the back step, and it bothered me, that it sat there for a few days, because it took me a few days to get enough strength to go back there and take it out. And it wasn’t anything like me being weak, it was that I have disabilities, it would be nice if I had a balance. And I realize that could be done with having a roommate. So either way, it forms - it could be a roommate, it could be anchor partners, or a nesting partner, or a primary partner that comes and helps me out, I don’t really care how it’s done, I just need help. And it would be someone I would give the same help to, if they need some help.
But for me, I do desire romantic connection to people I share space with in my home cuz I’m really weird about that, but I do think that the spectrum always seems like, “You have to be this hermit who lives by yourself, you have to be strong.” Like I can have 100 people behind me, or 100 people around me, and I’m still incredibly independent, like obsessively so. To the point where people have to say, “Hey you don’t have to do that by yourself.” (laughs) And that has a lot to do with my personality and my attachment, I have an avoidant attachment personality type. So I don’t typically want people that close to me, but I recognize that I have to work through that trauma. And also I have a personality disorder so that allows me to be antisocial. So with all these things, solo poly fits me naturally, but I’m aware of the fact that some things are really based upon my trauma.
Leanne: Yeah, I think it’s definitely important not to hide behind labels in order to avoid facing up to some issues that might be better being addressed.
I would definitely love to talk with you more about how your disability has affected your polyamory, your disability and your personality disorder. I remember we did a talk a while back about polyamory and autism, and I talked about my experience so I would love to hear your side of it.
Marjani: I have two personality disorders. Antisocial personality disorder, which is known, unfortunately — I say unfortunately, but it doesn’t bother me — they put sociopath and psychopath in the same bubble. And typically, antisocial personality disorder, as by the psychologists and psychiatrists. And the issue is, with those words, it’s immediately a thought process - you think of an angry white man, shooting up a school. That’s literally, immediately the first thought about somebody like that. That alone was probably why I denied that diagnosis for three years in a row. I was like, “No, that doesn’t make any sense, I have friends, c’mon, I got outside. Like what are your talking about?” “Yeah, but you do very manipulative things, and - “ And it took me, like, that’s not how it looks.
I saw a post a few years ago, and it’s this guy that goes around and does video documentaries with people with different disabilities, whether they’re autistic, or they’re mentally ill, whatever it is that day, or if they have severe disabilities like my little brother, who is non-verbal. And there was this Black guy there who was considered a sociopath, he had ASPD like I did, and he reminded me of myself! I mean, obviously, right? But this is the first time I’m seeing a Black person in this position, and he was a little less animated than I am, but a lot of the things he felt and a lot of the things I see, even when I’m in some of these Reddit forums, goodness forbid, they fit my core thoughts, and so I realized, oh shit, I’ve been denied a lot of care, or provisions, or even a community, because no one looks like me.
So that’s one that really affects me, and that’s a huge issue why a lot of times in my relationships, I think about myself as independent, and I have to really work hard to make a reason for me not to manipulate someone. And I know that sounds very bad for me when I put it that way, like what is the reason, it’s almost like narcissists do it out of lack, and sociopaths do it out of an urge, like an itch. And so it’s a different space to have to work through, and I don’t come off as one to most people unless they really know me, and that’s okay. That means it’s working, the masking, it’s called! The masking of it right? (both laugh) That’s when that conflates a lot, but it’s not as strong, as my OCPD, which is Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, not to be confused with OCD.
So I have this thought process that I’m a control freak. So everything I do is right, nothing I do is wrong, nothing - and that is obsessive. That is older than ASPD. That comes with how you’re raised. So how that affects my - the ASPD is not as bad as my OCPD. The OCPD makes it so that you’ll say something to me, we could do the exact same thing, we could make the same cake, but if you stirred it two extra times longer than me, you’re wrong. Your cake is immediately fucked. Your cake is wrong, and there’s no telling me that the cake is right, I don’t care what you said, the cake is wrong. So a lot of times when things are being done, I don’t wanna see it. I don’t wanna see someone do it, I just wanna see the outcome of it. OCPD people have micromanagement issues, we don’t necessarily like to do stuff in teams. I hate teamwork, I hate teamwork, I hate it, because it raises my anxiety (Leanne: Ok).
So imagine how that looks for most dynamics. That’s why I cannot do group dynamics, I cannot be in a polycule, shared co-op, four people in the house, I’m burning the house down. (Both laugh). Something is going to happen. Like, “Wow, it’s crazy how you took the trash out on Monday night, you should take it out on Tuesday morning.” Over some trash. So it’s really like you get argumentative about things, there’s so many things you have to do that’s like a ritual — that means nothing, that’s more OCD it’s considered—it’s moreso like it has to be perfect. And that’s usually rooted in childhood trauma. Awkward. So that is something that I notice happens a lot with me, where if something’s not quite the way I’d do it, if I hear something my partner’s bringing up, and I don’t like the way he’s done it, I’m like, “Well I would have done that. If you did it this way like I told you four months ago, we wouldn’t be in this situation now!” And dadadada. That is not a nagging thing when in reality I have to understand how people think. And I have to respect that, which is really difficult. So that makes my relationships sometimes really difficult.
If the person I’m dealing with is not strong enough to be comfortable in their decisions, I can manipulate you to change your mind, or I can make your decisions were poor, and you fucked up, and now ASPD can turn into a terrible cycle. So I really don’t like putting that cycle on my interpersonal relationships. I don’t care about people outside that, no offence, but when I’m dealing with people one on one, I want to be able to (exhale) take off some of that mask and not be as active about it.
So those are the - with my disabilities, I have foot issues, knee issues, I have PTSD - those are still important, but I noticed that the personality disorders have caused more issues in my relationships than anything else. That is something that I’m still working through.
Leanne: Yeah, and you brought up a really good point about how - I think a lot of people in the polyamorous community there’s this glorification of this kitchen table polyamory, co-op, commune, cottage-core aesthetic situation. (Both laugh) And I definitely see the value in that, but I think a lot of people forget that due to a variety of reasons, there are some people not only don’t want to, but cannot be in those dynamics. So you’ve mentioned some very very valid reasons for not wanting to be in that kind of situation.
And I remember in a chat that I had with @polypages, not in our episode but just in another call that we had, she talked about how because she is hard of hearing, and she has a hearing aid, it’s very difficult for her to be in a kitchen table dynamic and she prefers to meet with partners one on one, rather than meeting people in a group, because it really fucks with the hearing aid if she’s speaking to multiple people at the same time. And that was something I had no idea that was a thing with hearing aids, and that was so fascinating to me. But it’s more than just a preference for some people, with some people you are boxed into certain dynamics because of the way you are, and there is no amount of therapy or trauma work or whatever that is going to change that.
So, let’s get to the meat of polyamory and Blackness, which is what we’re here for today. So I guess the most obvious question is: what do you think is so different about the Black polyamorous community, whether it is the issues within it, how people conduct themselves, or the philosophy that it is based in, that you feel is different from the mainstream, white polyamory?
Marjani: It’s really, the biggest obvious thing with race is some of the language, and interpretation of that language. So how we see stuff. Like, one big thing I’ve been going back and forth with on my page, and I’ll fight to the death on this, is the term fluid bonding vs. fluid exchange. And the fights I’ve had against predominantly white queer people. They’re the first ones on my page freaking out. They’re like, “Oh my god, you said fluid bonding, we don’t use that word anymore!” You don’t use that word anymore because it’s in your community.
Black people were not at the table when you had the discussion about, “Should we say fluid bonding or fluid exchange?” Black people who were not still unpacking their Blackness in the community, especially when they were the token, were not at the table when you had the discussion even more so. So fluid bonding, is a big one for me, was the fact that why are you so anti- this word, especially when we know there are Black people in the community, and African people in the community, who navigate hoodoo, voodoo, and other African spirituality in which fluid bonding is a real thing, vs. fluid exchange. Yeah I had sex with you, but you know, we kissed. Versus I had sex with you and you had sex with on my period. That’s a whole ‘nother realm for a lot of Black people in the community. This whole spirituality thought process, like a big one is, “Don’t eat a woman’s spaghetti the first time you meet her.” Because women will take their - it’s more of a voodoo concept - take their menstrual cycle, put it in someone’s spaghetti and eat it, and it creates a soul tie. Yes, it is witchcraft, voodoo — I don’t like to say witchcraft — it is something that is done, people do it. So Black boys and Black men are told to be very wary of red sauces around Black women, especially women who practice hoodoo or voodoo, or know anything about that.
So I felt like it was really a disservice to that side of the community that is very predominantly there. We are present, we do practice African spirituality, so hearing that fluid bonding, someone like my boyfriend is from the Ivory Coast. Having sex with me, versus having sex with somebody else, with a condom, is distinctly different. Or having sex with someone and exchanging fluids — yes, they had sex — we need to understand that in the basic logical form, all these things can happen with fluid exchange. Fluid bonding is a whole nother layer, more to the spiritual, emotional side. And a soul-based side. So I felt like it was really, I don’t want to say it was racist - it was real Eurocentric to me, and even bothered me because even older European religions that focus on spirituality, that do the same thing and do have fluid bonding practices. So even in considering BDSM is a fluid bonding practice.
So the biggest thing for me was the languages. With the languages, there was no Black person present when these words were discussed. I don’t care what you say, there weren’t. It doesn’t feel like it, and I know - I’m aware of that. And that’s why a huge part of the Black community that does practice polyamory does not like terms — they hate the terms — because they thought they weren’t made for them. It sucks.
Leanne: And I think, to be fair, regarding the whole fluid bonding/fluid exchange debate — because I have spoken about it on my page as well — I’m not opposed to the term fluid bonding but I do want to make a distinction between the two terms. Because while some people really do want the spiritual aspect or the soul connection aspect that comes with the connotations of “bonding”, there are some people who don’t want to put so much stock in not using a condom, or not using barriers. And that is why some people prefer fluid exchange — I myself prefer fluid exchange — because I don’t see the significance of using a condom or not using a condom. And I use a condom with most of my partners. I think as well there are some people who use condoms with everyone and the implication is that they never bond with anyone because they prefer to use protection. And I feel like that is a disservice to those people. And so I feel like the distinction is important, but I completely see what you mean. Also, to add onto what you said apart from the spirituality aspect, there’s also some people in the BDSM community who see a kinky kind of possessiveness aspect to the term “fluid bonding” and so they very much want to preserve that term as well.
So in what other ways do you think language in the Black polyamorous community, or maybe reasons why people pursue polyamory in the Black polyamorous community, what might be different?
Marjani: The big elephant in the room is socioeconomic oppression, in America specifically. That is a big reason why a lot of Black people are pursuing polyamory. I don’t know if you’ve heard the little jargon, “Three incomes is better than two,” or “Build an empire”. That makes my stomach turn. That is off of pure capitalism and socioeconomic need. With a bit of misogynoir sprinkled on top. And when non-Black communities are navigating polyamory and they have Black people present, they’re not aware of this. They’re not privy to the Brother Polights, the Nature Boys, they don’t know about this stuff, they have no idea what’s going on. And as soon as they look up some of the research, it’s incredibly harmful for us, or they use it as an example of Black polyamory or polygyny, and it completely isolates the rest of us who are literally walking around saying hey, I’m doing the thing in an ethical way, I’m not doing this! And when you have images of Black polyamory, and it is Brother Polight, who just recently had a charge for - trigger warning - with molesting a child. One of his potential wives. (laughs) It’s like, “Oh dang!” It really makes it difficult for us. And unlike the white community, they can get away with one or two bad things and it doesn’t overwhelm the whole community. But with people of colour, if one does wrong, we’re all wrong, we’re all fucked up, it doesn’t matter.
Leanne: Yeah, you’re all tarred with the same brush.
Marjani: Yeah, so it gets really uncomfortable. Because a lot of times, even in some of the chats I’m in, I might be shown a Black-focused poly, ENM page and it’s fucked up. And it’s a really fucked up page, and I don’t see them share the better versions of these pages and it’s very bothersome to me. And it isolates us, it marginalizes us and doesn’t acknowledge that there are people in those communities that are trying to do something. It’s uncomfortable, it really makes me uncomfortable.
And there aren’t people acknowledging why it’s an empire, why it is building an empire. They’re not saying build an empire off the sweat and bones, it’s just off the concept that they are misogynists, they’re doing it because of white supremacy, which in some form or fashion, we are rooted in. That’s what they need to understand, that’s the big reason why we need to have different ethnicities representing themselves in polyamory. Because whiteness typically, when they do it for us, it doesn’t look right. They don’t know why Black people are so focused on building an empire, and having a king and two queens, where is that coming from? The forced diaspora of Africans that were enslaved, is why they’re doing that. The lack of access to information about their lineage, is why they’re doing that. The neocolonization that is happening, is why they’re doing that. But you wouldn’t know that because all you saw was misogynoir. Which is fine, we can acknowledge that, let’s acknowledge that, but let’s also acknowledge the fact that there’s some issues going on here with identity and how to apply that and how to navigate capitalism.
It’s very difficult. I am fully aware of my financial privilege, and I understand why people who are not in my space would want to have two people to help them with the bills. Because I never in my adult life, had a situation where if I fall back on a bill - if I lost my job right now, I would have somewhere to go. If I lost my job right now, I have something to fall back on, I’m not gonna be on the streets tomorrow. I know that for a fact. That I cannot say the same for most Black people in the community. So of course you can see why they would find the lure of two women being in a house with one man, and why having two women present can make them feel more African-ness, and when they have been forced out, snatched up from their homeland, and forced to take on these new spaces. So you see why people would be in that space.
That’s a big issue, that is even how I code my words, how I talk on my page, I speak, the TikToks I do, the things I do, is curated towards our communities for that reason. Because they don’t see that, no one knows how we’re moving, they don’t know why we feel that way. They just see, “Oh, nah, it’s a misogynist Black guy with his two girlfriends looking for a fourth or something. Why would they do that, oh it’s crazy, she should love herself more.” (both laugh) “Thank you for your input.” So yeah, that is the big elephant in the room and why we need representation, what the big difference is, and why I don’t like people talking too much about it if they’re not at least a person of colour.
Leanne: Okay. Yeah, and I remember there was a TikTok that you made a while back where you were doing a skit where you were speaking to a couple and they said, “Yeah, we wanna build an empire” and you were like, “Build an empire, you’re 37, what are you doing?” So could you tell me more about this “build the empire” concept, and about the misogynoir that other people see, but what function does that serve in the community? Can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Marjani: Yeah, so the term “build an empire” comes off of Black nationalists and Black supremacy. Some people hear that and start freaking out, and I wanna be clear guys, I’m not talking about the Klansmen, (laughs) I’m not talking about the KKK. I’m talking about Black nationalists, Black supremacists, Black Panthers — I don’t want to get into that too much because that’s an older movement — but you have this Pan-African — better word — Pan-African movement or awareness of Black people who are trying to figure out who they are. Including myself. I did an ancestry DNA test recently, to see where I came from. And it was disheartening to see a riddle of countries, and I’m like, I know motherfucker, that ain’t right. I see all these countries and I’m like, that don’t even look right. One person came from all these countries? But I understand how this thing works, that people came from different tribes being put in the same area, whatever, I get it.
But what is going on is this need, this want to find self. A lot of Black people — and people are gonna fight me for this, and I do not care — only feel comfortable acknowledging their Blackness and their Africanness through the eyes and lens of white supremacy and white man’s gaze. You’ve ever heard of the male gaze, I call it the white man’s gaze. We like to see ourselves as Kings and Queens. Every African was not a king, every African was not a queen. Okay? There were people in your ancestry who were not great. But people don’t want to accept that. And the deification of those people, these ancestors, allow us to feel more valid, and more important, than maybe people really are. I know that it sounds really fucked up when I say that, but bear with me: polyamory allows us to emulate that. We get to emulate that kingship, like, “Oh I’m a king. Our ancestors, our women, support our men, we’re strong queens” and dadadada. It allows women to feel more feminine.
Because we don’t have that — there is no feminist space allowed to Black women in America. It’s the Jezebel concept. You’re the whore, you’re the white man’s toy, you’re the woman wearing the red dress - google that if you want to learn more about that. So by feeling empowerment in your femininity under the Black man, a lot of women feel like that’s the space for them. Like we’re supposed to owe our womb, our uterus, to the extension, the growth of the Black community. That’s where you’re getting Hebrew Israelites taking over a bit of the polygyny side, that’s where you’re getting the hoteptry concepts. A lot of issue with Pan-African people, it’s a whole lack of access thing. I’ve never been to Africa, the whole continent at all, but I had education access to research some more about the continent and certain specific parts of the continent. And I also understand that my research has not stopped at, “This one tribe had a king who had five wives.” It doesn’t stop there. And a lot of times people, stop where they’re most comfortable. And no one wants to go -
And what’s more comfortable and more supported by a society is a patriarchy, not a matriarchy. You don’t want to research the polyandrous dynamics or the polyandrous tribes in Africa. That makes you feel uncomfortable. People don’t like that. They emulate whiteness. And so this is something that we have to really unpack. Where is my idea of masculinity coming from? Where is my idea of femininity coming from? That’s why I say a lot of times: Black people look on to West Africa, specifically to our ancestors, through a white man’s lens. We don’t know it, it’s hard to accept that, but we do. We treat them almost like, when people see my partner, I’m weirded out by how they act like he’s some god. I’m like, “Woah, slow down.” They’re like, “Yeah, that’s a good African king right there!” I’m like, “Wait, he is a man, he is a regular man.”
Leanne: (American accent) “He is a regular ass man!” (laughs)
Marjani: “He is a regular man!” (laughs) And even he knows sometimes they expect more out of him because he’s from his country.
So that feeling of importance is what is fueling that interest to polyamory, and not only that, it also fuels the feeling of relief, capitalistic relief. “If I can get one extra person here, it could help us out. We really need the help in our home. We really need someone to help with the kids.” It’s a general United States fucked up situation, because everything is fucked up here - it is, I have to say it - but the cosign of that is the idea that Black people are really fucked up behind capitalism. We cannot access certain things, like how many Black people can be in my space. I already know that I am very privileged off all the blood sweat and tears of my mother. And that was because she was lucky, that was pure fucking luck, because everyone else at the school is nowhere near me right now.
It sucks. It sucks so much, and it really makes me upset, when people don’t recognise that. And they just see us as like, they see the “build the empire” thing - yeah, I make fun of it, but I’m going to make fun of it, because I need us to see why it looks funny, why it’s messed up. You’re making fun of it because you don’t know why, you don’t know why it’s funny, you don’t know why it’s messed up. It’s really deeper than that. It’s us having to find ourselves and realize, “Maybe I don’t have to be polyamorous to be close to my ancestors.” It’s really hard, it’s a hard pill to swallow.
Leanne: Yeah, I do see - and I think not just in Black communities, but also in Asian communities, Indigenous communities - this idea of returning back to your ancestral roots through polyamory. And maybe it’s because I’m not a diaspora Asian — I grew up in Hong Kong, I grew up in a majority Asian country — so I feel like I have the privilege of being very secure in my ethnic identity, in a way that I feel diaspora Asians are not. So then I have never felt that need to return to my roots and be more Asian than I am or something.
Marjani: Yeah, so that’s like a more version of yourself.
Leanne: Yeah. I personally never understood that but the way you framed it as a struggle for identity and self-acceptance within the white supremacy in America as well, I think that’s a perspective that very much needs to be shared. Because yeah, a lot of people look at very surface level — I know I did — and not see the roots of the issue, and where it is coming from, and how it ties back to the same stuff.
Marjani: Yeah, the same issue.
Leanne: Yeah, exactly.
So, I remember you are very brazen on your page, and I love to see it. And I also love in particular how you just troll your followers when they’re not making any sense. I think a lot of people make a lot of accusations when you critique this “build the empire” idea, when you called out misogynoir in the community. I remember you made a post recently about how Black women’s bodies were used as props to further this “build this empire” idea, and ultimately it was doing a disservice to everyone involved. So I’ve seen a lot of comments, and I know you’ve got a question from one of your followers that they want answered on this episode, “Don’t you think polyamory should be used to help our community?” There’s this idea of saving the community, right? So what would you say to that?
Marjani: At the expense of who?
That’s it. At the expense of who? Who’s gonne - who is losing more? And who is having to compromise more? It will always be the marginalized people in that community. I don’t care what anyone says, I will die on that hill, screaming and hollering. (laughs) People who are going to be taking over, or helping the community, or “Don’t you think you should do this for the community?” typically that is at the expense of those who are the most marginalized and oppressed in the community. That is inclusive of the women, queer people, disabled people, and you have to layer up the disabilities. Because there’s layers of disabilities too. There are visible and invisible disabilities (Leanne: yep!) And so for the disabled trans woman who is Black, who’s going to marry her? Who’s gonna put her into their poly dynamic? Into their polygynousdynamic we’ve been discussing here. Who is going to do that?
And that’s because there is hyper, hyper queerphobia and transphobia in the Black community. Like, ahhhh! So we’re not one to sit here and dress this up and ask who is going to benefit here. And there’s this idea that there’s a lot of Black single women who need, who need, husbands. I don’t know where that is coming from. I don’t know where that statistic’s at, I’m still looking for the statistics of where there’s a lot of Black cis women looking for husbands to be with forever to death. And why we need to couple these women with single men, and make these polygynous dynamics. And I look at that and wonder at the expense of who and how this is going to help us. How is putting three broke people in the same house going to make it better for us. (Leanne laughs) I’ve never understood that. How can I help? No one can give me good numbers for that.
I remember someone started running the numbers to me one day, and I wasn’t trying to be a dick - excuse my language - but I make more money than all three people they said. So why would be with the three of you guys if you make less money than me? If we’re going to be doing this like this, we’re gonna make it really - and its fucked up when I put it that way, because I don’t like leaning too much on that, but I have to do that to have a conversation. Because people have to realize the reality of what is going on here. You’re trying to be like me, I can do it by myself. So why would I put myself in a situation when I can give you my money? That’s a pyramid scheme. Why would I do that? Like, “You put money, it will come back to you, man. It’ll come back to you!” Like, no, I’m not doing that. I’m going to be fucked in this situation, I’m going to be carrying the weight of this situation.
I don’t mind helping my brothers and sisters and siblings. I don’t mind helping the community. But I don’t think we should be putting people in situations that are not conducive to what they should do. We shouldn’t have to suffer. If there is a community ask, that’s saying, “Hey guys, because I think this is best for our community, we should all do it!” “Well, I don’t really like it.” “I don’t care. I think we should all be pansexual and make it fucking work.” “Well, I don’t really like women.” “I don’t give a fuck what you like.” (Leanne laughs) “It’s for our community. People need to be loved.” Like, it don’t - how the heck -
Leanne: (laughs) That’s a great way to put it.
Marjani: What does it sound like? “No, you’re fucked up.” “Well, we all should be doing this. Oh, you don’t do that?” It gets crazy. And in reality, in the community doing that is a disservice obviously to ourselves, and it’s not acknowledging the fucking elephant in the room: capitalism. We can still navigate capitalism and fight against it without doing that! It don’t make sense to me. It don’t make sense to me. We’re trying to work in a system that was literally deliberately made for white men. It wasn’t made for Black people. And the laws that we have protect those people. So where is the logic in putting three of us together? I’d rather not. If anything, it makes sense to marry a white man. But no one wants to hear that. If I say that then people get upset. But it’s like, yes, that’s how you sound. How do you get yourself more akin to whiteness. That’s what I hear when I hear some of that, and that’s how I think it might mean. It gives me assimilation ideas. I don’t like that.
Leanne: Yeah, I remember when I was speaking to Jhen from @monogamishpod, we talked about polyamory and race generally, there was also a little bit of discussion of proximity to whiteness, and we can get into that. The point I wanted to bring up, regarding the example you bring up of a Black disabled trans woman, who is going to marry her in that kind of polygynous dynamic, and that reminds me of another post you made, where you were just like, “You don’t want a third, you want a nanny. And you are exploiting the labour of Black women to further this agenda.” So who loses? What does this all come at the expense of? And so in the example you raised, of someone who has disabilities, wouldn’t be able to help around the house as much as someone who is able-bodied. And where does that leave them? So yeah, these things need to be discussed. And if people get mad, they are going to get mad.
So let’s talk about this idea of proximity to whiteness. I remember you made a post a while back—and I also talked to Jhen in our episode on polyamory and race —within the Black polyamorous community, there’s a boundary that often crops up, a boundary, a wall, however you describe it, where someone’s boundary is that they will not date someone who dates white people. No white people in the polycule. So, what are your thoughts on that policy?
Marjani: I understand. I made that post that way, knowing people were going to freak out. Because you know. But I think you have to recognize, it’s kind of like how I’ve heard people say, in their dynamic, they don’t want any cis people in it. And have people get upset about that, like, “Oh fuck, that’s not fair.” I mean, they have the potential of someone to come in and do some microaggressions and fuck up everything, and they don’t feel comfortable in that space. Yes, Black people can do some pretty fucked up shit, and express some internalized racism, but it’s a little easier to digest sometimes than coming from the oppressor. So the boundary, especially in those safe spaces, is very important. Especially to me. I’m really big on safe spaces. I do not, I do not, I do not, want white people in a safe space. I think this should be an all-Black space, having only people who identify as Black, whether you’re Black-Hispanic, Afro - I don’t care, if you’re Blasian, I don’t care, that’s fine. But there has to be some Blackness coming along, some identification with Blackness in the space.
Because I’ve noticed as someone who has been - especially navigating Pan-African movements, and pro-Black movements since I was like, sixteen years old, and being raised by a very pro-Black mother, and being in these spaces - any time there is a drop of whiteness present, people change. We don’t want to accept that, but people do change. There is something that Malcolm X said, and I am going to fuck the quote up so please be mad at me, but at some point, the movement like a cup of coffee, is a Black cup of coffee. You add too much milk to it, it no longer becomes a cup of coffee, it becomes a cup of milk, almost. And that cup of milk, that milk being the whiteness. You can be in a room of 50 Black people, and there’s one white person there, and there’s a good chance that the Black people are not going to say what they want to say, because they’re trying to coddle and be aware, and almost make sure the white person is comfortable in that space. They don’t want to be too violent, they don’t want to be too radical, they don’t want to be too anything, and we’re never afforded that privilege. So I don’t understand why I need to do the same for them.
And so I do understand why there’s Black people that don’t want to have anyone white in their dynamic. I personally am not like that. My partners have had white partners, I know that I am not really probably going to date a white man or a white woman, I am more quickly going to date a white queer person, and I’m saying that with strong quotation marks. Because it is all steam, it’s all steam to unpack all that. It’s easier for me to date - my boyfriend in college was Iranian-Armenian, and he was seen as European for the most part, he passed, he was white. How they saw that he was white, even though he was not, he would open his mouth to them. And it was ten times easier dealing with him. Like I was talking to an Italian guy this one time. It was ten times easier dealing with him.
And white American people are just really hard to have these conversations with sometimes. Or they’re like, they may be aware of it, and they’re like, “Yeah I’m fully for the struggle, I’m totally for it” and then some shit pop off and they’re like, “Well, I think you should have done it differently”. And I don’t want anyone to ever think that because they have a Black child together that they have somehow transcended racism. I don’t — I’ll die, I’ll die, I’ll die. (laughs) Like, “Oh my Black wife” — what’s that? Never say that again. So I have this crippling fear that someone will use my Blackness as a pedestal to erase their racism. I don’t want that. I do not want that. It’s very uncomfortable. And it is something that people don’t like, but it is what it is, I think it’s okay. People have the right to protect themselves from potential oppression. I think that’s okay.
Leanne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, very well said. I think that I, I take a similar approach to you, in that I - and I talk more about this in my episode with Jhen, but basically - I have had the very unique life experience of having had an Asian boyfriend who was more racist than all of my white boyfriends put together. (Marjani: Jesus, Jesus yeah) And the internalized racism was real with that. And because of that, I don’t automatically associate whiteness with oppression or non-safeness, and people of colour with safeness and wokeness, because that has not been my life experience. But obviously, again, I grew up in Hong Kong not in the UK, and of course, racial politics in the UK are very very different from the US, and there’s also that element in there as well.
So since we’re on a roll talking about various hard-hitting topics in the community, so let’s do more of it. (laughs) Let’s talk about queerphobia within the polyamorous community. (Marjani: ah! Yes!) What are your thoughts on that, what do you think are the kind of issues and where are they based?
Marjani: Beyond the fact that polyamory is always focused on the cis man with the two cis bisexual women. (Leanne: yep, yep, yep) It — which is incredibly limiting — it creates this space where it’s not only problematic for Black, general queer, people, but also where Black masculinity can’t exist. Not in a comfortable way. And I know it sounds weird, like I’m not talking Black femininity in some form or fashion. And I put femininity broadly, obviously, and masculinity broadly, because people identify with masculinity in different ways, it could be non-binary, could be a Black masculine person. So - it puts a lot of pressure on masculine Black people to have to live up to some standards, in fear of being - the second it seems like you’re just a little too effeminate, you’re GAY. And that gayphobia, that queerphobia, turns in and bubbles into this crazy toxic beast. And it’s like, “You’re not really worth living.” And I’m saying this with strong trigger warnings. Because this is some things that I have heard and had to deal with. Like you’re seen as, you’re wasting yourself.
I had a partner — my ex-husband — who was pansexual like me. And his pansexuality - now granted, no one is going to fight this man. I’m sorry. But no one is going to fight this man, this man is stocky, he is built - but I do know people who have tried to challenge him on that. They’d try to say something like, “You’re not really a man, because you’re pansexual” and it’s like, what does that have to do with anything? But the violent reactions that come out of them, the very violent reactions: “You’re doing a disservice to your woman, your woman” — I’m queer as fuck, I really hate that, but whatever — “your woman, you’re not really a man for her!” and it makes it so that these - not only does it create a situation where people are forced to do something that they’re not really into, really, they might not want to have two women in their dynamic. They actually might want to have some queer people in there too. They don’t necessarily want to have these expectations put on them, but it also makes them internalize it and then in turn be the ones spewing it out as well. I notice that a lot.
I went to an event last year - and I’ll hold the name back for commercial reasons - and there were people coming to me who had been vocally queerphobic, but they wanted to do something with me and my comet and I was like, “That doesn’t seem queer to me! Last week you were saying “that’s some gay shit” and now you’re like, “Hey, man, y’all wanna come afterwards to my Airbnb?” and I’m like, to do what?” Because of that, that repression, and they came to me because they knew that I wasn’t going to go and say, “Hey everybody, so and so has dadada.” I just don’t like that.
And this queerphobia, I love that people kind of build queerphobia out of something that came out of whiteness. Just a note that being gay is illegal in Nigeria. That has nothing to do with whiteness, okay? But the fact that there is, if you’re going further back and how it works in some African, Orisha, West Africa, there are queer, there are some queer gods. And no one wants to talk about that. And they are erased. They’re erased. They exist, but their gender is given to them, they’ve been given a gender at this point.
Leanne: Yeah, they’re just conveniently pushed aside because they don’t follow that narrative.
Marjani: Yeah, so and so was queer because they could go between male and female and both, and then all of a sudden it’s a woman. Like what the - where is this coming from? And so long story short, I think that it’s a poison. And queerphobia, especially when it comes to bisexual bodies - not always, but especially bisexuality because it is a focus in this community - is bisexual women are only toys or some shit. Like bi romance does not exist. It’s hetero romance and bisexuality. Nobody really likes the idea of, “Yeah, I’m totally okay with my girls kissing each other but they’re not romantic.” And that’s where you’re getting into these specific dynamics, and all of a sudden everybody’s freaking the fuck out because your wife is going out on a date with her girlfriend. Like a date. And you’re not there. Like, oh, wait a minute! Or they’re having a romantic evening or having sex together, and you can’t come.
Leanne: How dare they exist without me!
Marjani: Right! “But do you know that I am here for you! How dare you have sex without penetration. Do you even know what that is? You all just — “ And that creates this conversation where cismen are saying like, “Oh, that’s why lesbians really want men, because they use penetrative toys.” Like where is this coming from? It’s all this queerphobia and this lack of being comfortable with themselves. And it doesn’t help, especially with the hypermasculinity and hyperfemininity that Black people have to deal with. Specifically, hypermasculinity for Black men, and Black women. Black men have to live with a higher standard - that was put on them by racist ideology for the most part - Black men have to be super strong, fucking stallions, these bucks. And then Black women, if they’re darker, they’re more masculine, so the lighter you are the more feminine you are. And so a lot of Black women are trying to follow this “rest in your femininity” thing, which is literally a 1950s white woman. That’s all that it is, 1950s white woman. The idea of femininity being this softness and this gracefulness that emulates a 1950s white woman who goes to France with her husband in the summertime. That’s what the fuck it is. (Leanne laughs) And it is literally rooted in this queerphobia fear of, “If I move too out of this, I’m gay. And I therefore no longer have a use in the community.” It sucks. (laughs) It sucks. It sucks.
Leanne: Specifically, use in the community, what do you mean by that? Why is there this focus on usefulness, and wasting yourself in the community?
Marjani: I think it is akin to - my partner I was talking to today about the - We were moreso talking because we were looking at something, he was akining the tiger mom thing with the Asian culture, the ver aggressive parents, of you should do this. He came to me like, “Oh those remind me of my people. They’re the same people except they’re in a different country, a different continent.” So he started explaining to me, “Yeah, I’ve heard the same rhetoric, especially with immigrant children.” So this same concept. So we were talking about that and it juxtapositioned to we may not have, Black people might not have that immigrant child concept, of the very aggressive parent, what we have is an aggressive parent of the community. Don’t put shame on the community. (Leanne: yeah) Make sure that you’re living up to these standards by the community, and if you’re not, you’re putting shame on the community.
So we have the Black polyamory, especially the community being hyperfocused around Pan-Africanism, typically misogynist Black polyamory. If you’re not doing things that are useful to the community, you’re doing a disservice to the community. That’s why you get these Kevin Stallion screams coming out from the fucking woodwork, crawling out from the fucking bottom like, “Black women need to submit and then we’ll be better off as a community.” Like that fucking guy, like that dude. So not having use is queerphobic, immediately, immediately queerphobic and ableist, always, top tier, every time, no matter what you do. So because I’m pansexual and I’m queer, and I don’t identify as a woman the way people want me to, and I don’t want to use my uterus to procreate off the backs of the community, I am immediately useless. If I am someone that cannot have children — I remember a guy said, “If someone cannot have children — well, they can serve their use in other ways. They aren’t really a woman until they have a child.” And I was like, what the flying fuck is this? This is a concept that has been written about and stuff. This isn’t something that is brand new, that they are just pulling out of their assess, this is an actual thought process. Not only does it affect general women, but it affects people in a marginalized community even more so, because of the expectation you’re supposed to do this, you’re supposed to. If not, what’s the point.
Even the joke about the Black auntie at the Thanksgiving dinner that’s 40 years old, doesn’t have any kids, she has money, and she is considered selfish. It’s a mean concept, but she’s still selfish, she doesn’t want to get a husband and have kids, that’s selfish of you, to not want to do that. And to use your body to serve your own purpose and not for the purpose or benefit of the Black community. So that usefulness always is going to be queerphobic, its always going to be ableist, it’s always going to be that, no matter how we run it. And it’s something that seeps into the Black polyamorous community quite a bit because people are always trying to find a use for why we’re doing stuff. We can’t just be doing it because we want to do it.
Leanne: Yeah, it’s a very pro-natalist agenda as well. And it’s also a very pro-capitalist agenda, you could say, and it comes at the expense of the most marginalized.
So I’m afraid that’s all the time we have for today, (Marjani: yup, that’s fine!) and this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation. And people are probably going to get mad, but hey-ho! (Both laugh)
Marjani: That’s great!
Leanne: And where can people find you on social media, Marjani?
Marjani: Instagram, Clubhouse, I go on Clubhouse just to be around Clubhouse, I am Ebony, so don’t be surprised, I’m talking like a regular person, more calm. That’s my “take off the cape” moment. Facebook, and marjanilane.com is where I’m at right now, and TikTok too, though I’m not too crazy about TikTok, I’m trying.
Leanne: (laughs) It’s where all the kids are these days. Me. I’m the kids.
Marjani: Yeah, though I’ve got bad knees, no one’s dancing, so - Instagram is predominantly the space where you’re going to find most of my content.
Leanne: Thank you for the fantastic work that you do Marjani, you are a very important voice in the community. You should be very proud of your work. So thank you very much. And that is the end of the Happy Polydays series…for now. Thank you so much.
Leanne: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Happy Polydays series. If you’d like to support my work, consider becoming a Patreon subscriber at patreon.com/polyphiliablog. You can also follow me at @polyphiliablog on Instagram, Tiktok, Facebook, and Twitter, buy my polyamory merch at polyphiliashop.redbubble.com, or book a peer support session with me on my website polyphilia.blog. Until next time!